Luke Warm Christianity
Last week I asked for ideas to help increase masculinity in the church. I had assumed that most people would understand where I was coming from but I was wrong. People asked for a more well defined problem and situation so here goes.
There are a number of problems in the church that drive men away. I'll admit that much of it is the fault of the men for not even attempting to step up and try to be the men God has called them to be. At the very least we can look at this as an opportunity. An opportunity to grow (there is a lot of room for that).
Church Is Boring
Let's be honest. For the most part church is boring to men. It's rarely assertive, often nice, and just down right lame. This isn't just true from a mans point of view. This has been studied when it comes to 'the next generation' (those 25 and under) and the overwhelming response is that church is boring. This is the first problem. How can we make a church less boring? I am not talking about a place that is entertaining and like a rock show not boring but a place that shows who God is, what he expects of men, and how that isn't boring. If you think that actually is boring you are one of the people in need of help because it isn't.
The Bible Is Like War and Peace
I used to look at the bible like it was War and Peace. Really long, really slow reading, kinda boring, and an almost insurmountable task to actually read. I know I am not the only one that feels this way and how we got to this point is a mystery to me. How can we show men that the bible is a fun and sometimes exciting book to read? How can we show then that what it has to offer is life changing in a way that's challenging and good while not being lame and dull?
I know there are other pieces to this puzzle and these are the two at the forefront of my mind. Any ideas out there? Any thoughts or suggestions?
Comments
#1 Jesus
Okay, so Jesus might sound like a Sunday school answer, but how we talk about Jesus should change. Let's tone down the whole gentle, meek, and mild effeminate Jesus and pump up the Lion of Judah.
With an effeminate Jesus, you're going to attract women because he's just like one of their girlfriends. However, if you have a masculine Jesus, you attract both genders because you have somebody that men want to emulate and women want to marry.
#2 material
I like where you are going with this and it may be the Sunday school answer but I see how it could work. Do you know any material like a video series or bible study that shows Jesus in this light?
#3 Man Stuff
It'd be real easy for me to say, "host a super bowl party." But I don't think that would do it.
Instead, I think back to Peter and Paul - two very "masculine" Christian types. And you know what they did? LOTS! But I think that's the thing.
Peter and Paul were given stuff that they could do. They were given missional responsibility and missional expectations (to use the very overplayed "missional" buzzword).
So what do you do to get men involved? I don't think it's that enigmatic: Involve them. That means involve them in worship, doing readings and all sorts of other stuff. That also means involve them out of worship, which will make them want to come to worship.
jW
#4 Theology Played Out
I would say it's good to get them involved in things around the church but more important to get them involved in the mission of the church. Loving and Serving others.
You might be interested in reading this post on Theology Played Out
#5 Why does this make me nervous?
Why does all this talk about 'masculinizing" church make me nervous? It's definitely not because I'm opposed to men being Men of God. I think it has to do with the focus on the 'church' instead of focusing on encouraging men to be what God's called us to be as individuals.
It feels the same as when I hear people talk about "marketing" the church. I don't like that we're trying to manipulate something to get a result we want....I also don't like that there's such a confidence in the fact that this is the right answer. To me, all this talk about making church more manly feels shallow and very Post Modern....it's paying more attention to the speck in someone else's eye instead of the plank in our own.
I also haven't seen anything pointed out specifically where the current state of the church is contrary to scripture (you know, any more so than it normally will be, as long as humans run it). I'm not saying it's not flawed, even in this area, but I would like some scriptural examples. Can you give some specific examples of the problem and relate these to scripture? It feels like this is all based on feeling, some generalities, and some people's of view....can you offer something more concrete?
#6 When I get a chance
When I get a chance I will grab some scriptural stuff for you. It's not really that hard.
When I say church I mean two different things. First, Gods people. I find it striking how many of the men at St. Matts aren't being what God has called us to be as men. They don't lead, don't spend much time in Gods word (and their terrible personal theology in everyday discussions has shown me just how bad), they aren't involved in the missions of the church (for many ministries they can't find enough people), and many other things. They need to be reminded, lead, and encouraged to be men of God.
Second, I do mean the church as an organization. It has a definite feminine persona these days. This should be no surprise since there are more women involved in it than men. If the men were actively involved in the missions of the church I expect this feminine persona to go away.
I don't think the church should either be masculine or feminine. It should be reflection of the people where the men are masculine and the women are feminine. But, at St. Matts the men as a body aren't very masculine.
Maybe that's a post for another day... what is biblical masculinity? (complete with scriptural support)
Personally, this makes me very nervous. Looking at some of what the bible says on this makes me realize that I need change in my life. And, change (even though I enjoy it) makes me very nervous.
If you are wondering if we will stay theologically on track with this that please don't be so nervous. My goal is to have Dions thumbs up on this stuff so nothing goes off base. There are a lot of places that are not trying to find the truth but rebelling from the femininity. This isn't good and none of those who are trying to bring about change want that. We want to find the truth.
#7 Men vs. Followers of Christ
I hear what you're saying, but I have a question and a comment:
1. The ways you suggest that the Men aren't being Men can really apply to anyone (women included). Are women not expected to study their bibles, be involved in missions, or have solid theology? I don't see this applying to Men in the church, rather God's People as a whole. Just because Men don't do this doesn't mean they're not being "Manly", it simply means they need to grow more in their faith....afterall, if these things are considered "Manly", that means women shouldn't be expected to do them.
2. My comment is this: I think you've had a different experience with the men at St. Matthew than I have, so I accept that you've seen things that I haven't...however, I find that whenever I talk in generalities about a group of people like this (especially at church) it's often a product of a figment of my imagination...sure, the problem might be there, but it grows and grows in my mind until it's not just the 2 or 3 people I"ve encountered: It's all the men in the church!
I do this way too often with St. Matthew. I write off St Matthew as a bunch of people out of touch with reality, people who I don't have any common ground with at all, people that are so different than me that I can't relate to them at all....but then I meet some people. And I find out that, for the most part, those were generalities that were based on a few experiences, and not the reality of the church as a whole.
#8 Some truth
There is some truth in what you say about generalities. But, this is something a)has become a main stream observation in the church (in general), b)is something I have talked to some of the leadership staff about and they agree, c)is something I didn't notice until I herd several women in the church point it out (repeatedly), and d)is something several of the other men agree is happening and see happening.
I'll be honest, I didn't really see it or think it a worthy deal until others pointed it out to me. I knew I personally wanted to learn about this and could benefit from it and that the church at large was suffering from this but didn't really accept it as something at St. Matts until a number of people said something in conversations and I began to really notice it for myself.
Some of the things I talk about in generalities are true of all people in the church. But, there are some very men specific things that need to be dealt with. Like, the men being the head of the household and leading the household. I think this is a failing. Not because many aren't the head but because they aren't proactively leading it. And, there are many that have given up the leading to the kids, wife, or even trends in society.
Then, there's men loving their wives. Maybe it's me personally on this but I have seen several divorces of people at st. matts. I know a number of others who are struggling in their marriages. Yet, the men aren't doing what men are supposed to do in a marriage. They aren't loving and serving like they should.
And, we come back to how the women of St. Matts are decently active in the church while the men are much less active. This is something I was told and not my own personal observation. I think the men becoming more active and becoming more the men God wants us to be will bring about more men, women, and their kids being involved in a relationship with God and the mission of the church.
#9 sacrifice
maybe part of the problem is that the pastors at your church wear dresses that they call "robes" :)
Next week i'll wear leather pants and will chew tobacco... will that work?
i see this as being a bit broader than masculinity vs. femininity. To me the issues are sacrifice and passion. Sacrifice is actually the biggest one. People in our area, in our church are VERY unwilling to sacrifice anything for any cause. I think men need to sacrifice to feel engaged, but they refuse to step into it. They'd rather be catered to, sitting in the lazyboy with a remote and a can of bad beer with their half-naked wives running back and forth keeping the cheez-wiz hot.
That's what men want, that's what they pursue and it's killing them.
I don't know what is to be done when the thing that is needful is the thing that is disdained by most men. Meanwhile many churches reach men by playing the lazyboy, remote control, cheez-wiz tactics but is that helping anyone?
The divorce rate in the church is as high if not higher than the divorce rate in the world (that's the church all across america). It's because men have lost a desire to be the leaders of sacrifice and women have let them, even stepped in and done their work for them. Is that my fault?
i talk about this stuff all the time people choose not to hear it, they choose not to come or they turn off. they choose to model their lives after "tim the toolman taylor" rather than Jesus Christ and his cross. Paul said that the hallmark of manliness is loving your wife. Yes, HE said LOVE... he adds that the love should be like the love Christ has for his Church, so maybe it's not the "church's" fault, it's Paul's fault, he really should've edited that whole "love" bit out because men don't want a Jesus who loves...that's too girlie... we need a Jesus we can go high-five and grunt with at the lions game.
Okay so i'm going brezerk here, but there has to be more personal responsibility.
If men are disgruntled why don't they wake up and DO something about it... not change the church either (the church is just people), but why not step up and become the "priest" of their homes. Why not try on sacrifice for the sake of their families. Most of these men know better but they're waiting for someone to serve up something "sexier" while they sit in the comfort of their lazyboys. THAT'S the problem.
#10 Amen...
Amen, brother.
I agree whole heartedly...
#11 how to motivate?
Got any ideas on how to motivate men to sacrifice and give up seeking this sinful stuff? I am talking one man to another man motivation?
#12 one more thing
the church is boring? I think i agree with that statement a little bit. ANd there are probably things that could change in worship to make it more engaging for the sake of those who don't yet know him.
But i reject the notion that boring is a valid excuse for a Christ-follower. It sounds too much like a whiny adolescent, "mom, i'm bored!"
Who says that life is all about you NOT being bored?
There is personal responsibility here for people who claim Jesus Christ as their Lord. If i'm not working to be engaged then shame on me, Jesus deserves my attention even if I don't personally like the songs, the message, or the other "irrelevant" things like prayers, sacraments, all the kneeling.
boredom is the excuse of the dull (unimaginative) or the over-privileged. I refuse to accept it as a reason that people who already KNOW Christ are disengaged in giving him his due.
#13 boring not on you
I don't think the issue is the pastoral staff and what they are saying. I happen to like the stuff and think that it's hitting pretty well where the congregation needs. I think this is on the congregation.
And, I think that to make it not boring comes down to people in the congregation talking to each other, occasionally calling each other out, and encouraging each other to be honest about who God is and what that means. Basically, the rose colored glasses need to come off so people can see reality.
I don't want to deal with excuses. The engineer in me wants a problem and path forward in solving it. That's what I hope to happen.
#14 Hate to call you on this....
I hate to call ya on this, (I was gonna leave my last word as my last word) but your response seems to confirm that your approach is one step worse than I was even suggesting. First you're speaking in generalities:
Then, to make it one step worse, you haven't even experienced it yourself! I just assumed you were seeing things I wasn't, but it's not even that....you're 'hearing things' and agreeing with popular thinking. I still see no first hand experience or scriptural evidence for all of this....
I would just reconsider where this is coming from....I see nothing here that even remotely convinces me that this general thinking is nothing more than gossip on a grand scale.
(sorry if this sounds harsh, it just seems to me that if this were an argument in court, it would be thrown out instantly...it's all hearsay, secondhand evidence and popular opinion...and I think it's dangerous to base belief and emotional approach on any of these things)
#15 Path Forward
What you wrote is straight to the point and I like that. Your concerns are valid. I have experienced this problem myself and, for example, experience it myself every week when I play floor hockey. I think Dion is right on with his observations and I don't think doing things the Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor way is what masculinity is.
Why deal with men and masculinity?
1) The problem for men is different than the problem for women. This has to do with how society treats men and women and is in the very makeup of who we are. We are different. I am not saying that women don't need work, too. Or, that the church doesn't need more biblical femininity but that isn't my concern here.
What is masculinity? It isn't men chasing women, seeking after money, being hard-asses, being emotionally turned off, or being uncompassionate. I'm not talking about being macho. Masculinity is what God called men to be.
2) The reason to handle men separate from women is that men and women are different, the problem for them (even though there are a lot of parallels) has differences, and men are called to be something different from women is the way we live and interact with others.
I am not talking about raising the testosterone level at the church and I am not talking about making things more macho.
Since, masculinity is what God called men to be a church full of men not actively and intentionally attempting to be this way and actively encouraging each other to be different from that isn't masculine at all. So, when I say increase the masculinity in the church I mean get the men intentionally and actively trying to be what God calls them to be as men.
Maybe I haven't said this very clearly before. Does this makes sense? Is there a problem with this?
#16 No problem...
Nope, no problem with this at all...and I think it's well said.
I still just don't see how this is an issue relating to men. Everything you said in the previous post directly applies to all people of God (men and women).
The thing is, I think you're exactly right, but I think to frame the problem as "men aren't being Men" is where I disagree. People of God aren't being People of God. And that's been happening since Eden.
I think this problem would be addressed much better in broader terms and in unity (men and women)....building and inspiring the entire church, not just blaming one segment or only working on 'fixing' that segment. It's about inspiring each person to be what God calls them to be, not just "making the church less feminine"....
#17 The two issues that plagues Christian Men
Ok, So as I see it there are two issues that concerns men in Church today the first is what I will dub "Spiritual Masculinity" (I will go into this in a minute) and secondly the attractiveness of the church and how it appeals to the Masculine side of our gender.
Church Is Boring
Face it men there are definitely some aspects of church that we find boring. Men in general (don't get me wrong some men are different) like to be active, they enjoy adventure, music that gets them pumped and activities that involves a certain amount of danger and without these things we tend to get bored and our focus drifts. The general problem today is that the church often lacks a lot of these things and it just doesn't appeal to us we get bored and we lose focus. We do need to do something about this and come up with ways to make it appealing to that side of our nature because if the church is not appealing it makes it that so much harder for people to get close to God and thats whats its really about that personal relationship with Christ.
Spiritual Masculinity
So I feel that the other problem in Christian Men today is that we lack Spiritual Masculinity; let me explain, As with Physical Masculinity we as men have a heart for adventure for risk taking we take delight in fighting battles and in protecting those we love, and I feel that generally in the church today we are not seeing those qualities expressed in our spiritual nature. It has become less likely over the years that men will step out in faith and take control over a situation spiritually and fight battles in the spiritual realm; the prayer has left the lips of men and has been drowned in sheepishness. When was it last that someone has said something about christianity that was wrong and you knowing it was not in line with what Christ has told us in his word has stepped up in faith and put that person right?? Men have grown Passive (Myself included I know I have not said something when I should have). There are many examples Where Jesus models what Men of Christ should be like if we care to look, we need to start to break down this "Meek and Mild" version of Christ and Bring back an the version that men want to be like "The Lion of Judah" Christ Was a man to be rekoned with, he had guts, he was passionate and coragous and he modeled what we are to be also.
#18 Men To Step Up
I think you are right with this. And, I don't think this is for lack of teaching by preachers.
Men at the end of the work day go sit on the couch. Being lazy and entertained has grown into our lives. Now, many men don't know what to go do to engage this side of them. This is the case with many Christian men.
What can we do? Those who realize this stuff can encourage men to go out and get involved. Have a mens retreat. Get men out on a camping trip away from the regular entertainment of life and live in Gods kingdom. While out there play some pickup football, read some scripture and talk about it, grow as a community, and that kind of thing. Or/And, there is organizing men to go work on projects for things like habitat for humanity where men can do physical things and, personally, I have found a lot of men like that kind of thing.
The spiritual maturity thing is something I struggle with. Not so much personally, but in how to encourage and motivate others to be the same way. To do this I see to parts needed. One, is a good message/study. And, the second is inviting and encouraging others to come.
But, what happens when we have bad examples of this? When people who are seen as wise, active members in the church, or the spiritually mature of the church don't get involved, publicly, in spiritual maturity growth? I think it sets things back. They look at what they see as good examples and when the good examples don't grow they don't see quite the need to.
This is one of the reasons I think people, especially those seen as the face of a church, should attend regular worship and the bible studies. Just by their action it's an encouragement.